Ep 58 - December 17, 2025 - Jamie Dimon changes his tune
Welcome to the weekly crypto check-in, your go to podcast for navigating the wild world of cryptocurrencies hosted by Robert Swartel and Andres Sedate. Today, recorded on 12/17/2025, we're diving into the latest market shifts, blockchain breakthroughs, and expert insights to keep you ahead of the curve. How's it going, Andres?
Andres Sandate:Hey, Robert. Good. It's good to see you, and happy holidays.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Same to you. And I guess we should before we get rolling here, tell everyone, you know, happy holidays, merry Christmas, and all the things, and appreciate everyone listening throughout the year. It's, you know, been a crazy first year of this new administration, this new Stansource crypto, and I imagine 2026 has maybe some of the similar but different exciting things ahead. So fun times.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Definitely. Echo your your comments to listeners. For all of you out there who have tuned in to the show, whether live or on replay, we appreciate all the support and certainly always welcome any feedback, comments, questions, or, suggestions around how we can improve the show and help you guys, gain a better understanding of crypto and the digital asset space. And then one of the things that was kinda key to you and I deciding to do this on a consistent basis was trying to help people make sense of the, the asset class and the space as it gets more and more, integrated into our daily lives and also for users, whether they be advisers or individuals or even institutions who are trying to gain, a perspective on all the headlines.
Andres Sandate:So much of the space, as you, know, Robert, researching it, investing in it is covered in social media, particularly, on on x and other platforms that, we're seeing a change in the in the mainstream media coverage. But
Robert Swarthout:Mhmm. I
Andres Sandate:think, you know, if we stick to the sort of core mission of trying to pull some key headlines that we think help advance the conversation without taking sides. Hopefully, we're we're we're doing right by our listeners. But it's been a fun year, and we appreciate all the support.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Indeed. Awesome. Let's jump into our first topic here. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:You know, this is something that they have done a lot of testing around, but to kinda see it actually happening is cool. So Visa announced did a press release, so a full on announcement from a company about they're using USDC, the stablecoin, to do some settlement. This is a very small number for Visa right now. It's not like it's massive flows, but it's cool. They're doing it to help short shorten the seven day settlement windows.
Robert Swarthout:Otter's obviously modernized liquidity and treasury management and all the things that come along with crypto, it's cool. They're doing this initially with Cross River Bank and Lead Bank. Yeah. But I would imagine every time this expands and this is Solana specifically on excuse me. USDC on the Solana blockchain.
Andres Sandate:So Yeah. I mean, a lot of, I would say, things from a thematic standpoint with this headline. We've looked at 26. You know, individually, if people are investing in crypto, they might not be super excited about how the performance has been. It's been quite rocky here in in in recent months.
Andres Sandate:But I think when you zoom out and you look at infrastructure and some of the, you know, the we call it, you know, the plumbing and the core aspects to help take the asset class or blockchain, and digital assets, forward over the next, you know, decade, two decades, three decades. I think these are the types of developments from, an institutional perspective that will you know, they'll be easy to sort of overlook from a headline perspective, but they're pretty monumental when you, you know, when you think about how far, you know, these these key financial institutions have come in '25. So it it gives, you know, reason for optimism. And in fact, you know, when when you look at the analysts that cover Visa as a publicly traded company, you know, one of the the analysts at Bank of America, I'm reading upgraded Visa citing in part the development of their stablecoin prospects and their activity in crypto related products. You know, if you like think about these legacy traditional financial companies, you know, you immediately go to the likes of Visa and Mastercard and Discover and American Express, and you think you have to think that the technology, is gonna play a pretty pivotal and meaningful role in in how those companies operate and do business going forward.
Andres Sandate:So it's it's it's interesting to see how Wall Street and analysts are now taking note on and, in fact, measuring perhaps their prospects for the company on what are they doing in these areas, like stablecoins and other crypto aspects? And if if if if you tie it all together, you know, when analysts talk and they cover these companies and they start crypto and crypto related projects, that's gonna move the market.
Robert Swarthout:Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And it it you know, it's cool to see the part that was surprising to me about this announcement beyond just the timing of it was they're that they're using Solana because a couple months ago, Circle, the issuer of USDC, announced that they were building a purpose built blockchain called ARC, ARC, is gonna be for stablecoin settlement. And Visa, the time, was, I guess, somewhat loosely attached to that.
Robert Swarthout:A design partner. So they're doing that, and then on the side, they're doing this. Maybe they're gonna have multiple, I guess, rails, you may call it, across crypto to do settlement, but it's it's cool to see. And we I imagine we get a lot more news around this in the early part of twenty six. And, you know, Visa a lot of people don't know.
Robert Swarthout:Obviously, there's a lot of Visa cards out there. But Visa's quoted as saying, like, during, like, peak times, there's, like, 25,000 transactions a second. Many blockchains cannot handle that if they were to see say Visa was to put all the cards on blockchain. So, like, there there's a technology leap that still needs to happen. This is more of the settlement behind the scenes where things getting batched up.
Robert Swarthout:And over time, I think that maybe you'll start to see more rapid fire stuff happen, but this is more of a a end of day batching and kind of roll up of transactions. So Mhmm. Pretty cool stuff. Moving on to topic number two. This was anticipated, but I I would have guessed this would have happened in early twenty six.
Robert Swarthout:So the OCC had five applications on their desk for approval for bank charters. Specifically, three of them were for new charters or, excuse me, two of them for new charters and three of them were for converting state into federal charters. And these were all crypto companies. So it was Ripple, BitGo, Axos, Circle, and Digital Assets. I forget who that one.
Robert Swarthout:That is Fidelity. So they all were working on these licenses. Again, we talked about this couple months ago. This was the the Bankers Association Union or something like that came out
Andres Sandate:The ABA. Yeah. The ABA. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Came out and said that these didn't need to happen. And it's just it felt like this is stalled, I think. So good to see that it moved forward, and these are all conditional. These are not final.
Robert Swarthout:And I don't I don't even know if it becomes final, how hard it would be to revoke one because, you know, it could be the women within administration here. This would have not happened last year. And it again, it's happening this year. So pretty cool.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. I mean, you know, the the the the step towards this integration between digital assets, digital, digital money, and the traditional banking institutions, traditional banking infrastructure is is is obviously happening, whether you like it or not. The acceleration, we've always talked about this. We I think we underestimate, you know, in the short term technology and progress. And in the long run, you'd realize things are happening in weeks and months now.
Andres Sandate:And all you have to do is look at, this space or AI and realize, you know, if you go back four or five, you know, cycles of technological innovation or technological progress to whether it the Internet era, or before that, the speed at which stuff is happening and the disruption at which it's occurring to industries is pretty unprecedented. So, yeah, this is another, you know, another example of that. And it's it's it you know, a lot of people have always said, and I've spent, you know, virtually my whole career in in in financial services on Wall Street, and a lot of people have always said, you know, The US has too many banks. But try to go get a loan, and Mhmm. A lot of people would feel differently that it it is hard to go down the street and get a loan today.
Andres Sandate:So it'll be interesting to see what services, if these are ultimately approved, what services they expand upon because many a bank have started out as we were gonna keep it simple and just take deposits and make loans. And then you turn around and,
Robert Swarthout:you know,
Andres Sandate:you've got another, too big to fail bank on your hands. So Right. I I think it'll be interesting to see how far these groups go over time. But but, yeah, getting these conditional approvals is obviously a major step.
Robert Swarthout:Mhmm. Yeah. And I I don't know if in all cases, I would assume. I know in Ripple and Circle's case, the the goal is to get this, I guess, fully across the finish line and also apply for a a charter account with the Fed. And that would hit basically, the crypto wired into the traditional finance system, full stop.
Robert Swarthout:What they do with it from there would be have to be seen, but that that is a bit of the, I guess, the northern star that they're marching towards on this particular topic. So pretty cool. So moving on to the market structure bill here. We've talked about this. It it was moving along, and then we had the government shutdown for forty five days or whatever it was.
Robert Swarthout:And now they're back open, making some progress. You know, it's it's a day by day situation. There's days that it's they're making small amounts of progress. And then even this morning before I put these notes together, there was another thing saying, oh, there's a delay, and it won't be making much progress until 2026. Well, I don't know how much longer congress actually works.
Robert Swarthout:It's already December 17. I can't imagine much happens between now and the end of the year, but it's it seems like something that can get across the finish line in 2026. But, boy, I sure hope it doesn't drag on much past q two at the latest because then you get dangerously close to the midterms and all bets are off at that point. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I remember we talked about that very risk factor of a few months back is that if this thing slipped into the first or second quarter of next year Yeah. It it it who knows? I mean, all bets are off.
Andres Sandate:So I'm I'm like you. I'm optimistic that we'll see some momentum coming out of the holiday season in January. I think one of the big challenges is gonna be you know, there's gonna be a lot of discussion around the new Fed chair and or that appointment. And just listening to a lot of year end and sort of forecast for next year, webinars and events over the last few weeks from my perch, you know, just trying to help sort of frame up '25 and help, frame up what to expect in '26. One of the things that keeps coming up is, you know, this k shaped economy.
Andres Sandate:Mhmm. And the notion that, you know, you have a lot of consumers who are in the bottom part of that k that are not doing as well. And sentiment and wages and unemployment and those those types of fears. And so all that to say from a macro perspective, '26, is shaping up to be a a a pretty pivotal year pivotal toll year from the standpoint of not just this legislation, for crypto, but also, how the government is gonna handle that k shaped economy, what they're gonna do with rates, the Fed. So a lot of big things, and you hate to think that this bill gets sucked up into all of that.
Andres Sandate:Right. Because this the structure bill has, you know, long been something that I think we in the industry feel like could really open the floodgates to, not necessarily higher prices, but just much more adoption or headlines would be a multiple of what they are today in terms of institutional and and government adoption and ultimately consumers having, you know, more hopefully, more comfort in in participating in the space.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. It's you know, it to me, the the like, passing a bill with market structure is is rather simple. It puts out rules that people can follow with, you know, decent certainty that they're not gonna get sued because the rules change. Because right now, the rules are very opaque or don't exist. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:And it take it's too much risk for some people to want to build a business in this area. So you're right. I think that we could see a huge avalanche of change, but, again, we need some rules and some guidelines. Yeah. Anyways, our next topic is XRP and Solana joining forces.
Robert Swarthout:So this is true, partially not true. A bit of a clickbait headline there, I guess, at some level on my part. So there has been some announcements where you'll be able to buy XRP on the Solana blockchain. To me, there's not much utility in that. That's just more of, like, you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back, I think, these teams.
Robert Swarthout:There is some rumor and some speculation that Solana is really good at consumer, so retail focused apps. So DeFi and speed of execution there. XRP was more of a settlement rail. So it's almost like the commercial and the retail versions of crypto in some sense. There's a lot of things you can argue there, but I I think at a high level, that works.
Robert Swarthout:And the coming together, I'm not quite sure the motivation here, but it'll be interesting to kinda see how it rolls out over the course of 2026. So
Andres Sandate:Well, XRP's founder or not founder, I should say, even back up. The CEO Mhmm. Has come out and said one of the things they wanna be is the Amazon of crypto. Right? And so you, to the to the average person, you say Amazon, they know what that is.
Andres Sandate:Right. And I think now people understand that Amazon is much more than a retail store. And and so it's to me, watching how whether it's XRP wanting to look to start to have a more of a consumer focused complexion to the business or this is just one of many pilot projects, like you said, that it it we could have replaced this headline with any number of others. Mhmm. It it's something to watch.
Andres Sandate:Right? Something something to pay attention to to see. Because like you said, they've always been focused more on that business enterprise, government, customer at XRP or at Ripple. Yeah. And, we'll we'll we'll have to watch and see.
Andres Sandate:Do they do they look to add some consumer, facing solutions in, in the in the next few years?
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. When when Solana did their part of this announcement, they dug deep into the history of XRP on social media. There's the number 589. So 589 it's it's a long story, but it's been rumored. And I say this with no no sarcasm, but it's been rumored.
Robert Swarthout:Rumors are the important word there that at some point, XRP will be worth $589 because these series of events happened. So, like, when they when all Solana did was tweet five eight nine, like, it set off the interweb. And I was just big eye roll for me, but I was like, I guess, good on them. They they knew how to stoke the community and get get the eyeballs on it. But Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:You know, maybe maybe this is part of the plan. Some people might argue.
Andres Sandate:So Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Cool. Well, a more serious topic. So Bitwise, their index ETF, it's the top 10 cryptos, is now trading, and that the ticker is BITW. And it's it's live in trading, you could go buy one thing and be diversified in a crypto and not have to think about it.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. It's ten ten ten of the I guess, from a market cap index
Robert Swarthout:Market weighted. Yeah.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Market weighted. Ten ten of the largest crypto assets of BTC, ETH, XRP, SOL, ADA, and others. Yeah. And we we were talking about this offline.
Andres Sandate:Like, from an adviser perspective, does it give advisers who are investing in the space through, you know, a bit you know, a Bitcoin ETF or an Ethereum, index products? Does it does it give them some incentive to, swap those out and adopt this solution? You know, Bitwise has made a concerted effort to try to educate the adviser community and try to get in front of more and more, financial advisers and, you know, the effort to try to get them into the space, you know, now that they've got an ETP, ETF that allows, you know, that diversification, not without some disagreement or controversy about its components. But Sure. The reality is there's a lot of people out there that manage money for individuals and families and institutions that are indexers and or closet indexers and or are using the low cost funds because they don't believe in active management or they don't believe that there's a lot of value that could be added by active management, much less alternatives.
Andres Sandate:So that's kind of their religion, and this this gives them another option to get some of that diversification to a space. It's crazy that '25 is just feels like there's been so much, product launch in the ETF, ETP space outside of just crypto, like, in general. You know?
Robert Swarthout:But there's there has been, but there's actually more pending applications for different crypto ETFs to launch than there are actually active in the market. That that's how I mean, 2026 could potentially, I think, over double what is the current, product offerings and the number of offerings at least. So Yeah. The one thing interesting about this this index product is if you've been holding a Bitcoin or Ethereum ETF, technically, if you wanted to be in this and use the same dollars, you would have to sell, right, and move into that and taxable event, good or bad there, depending on what your basis is. But, like, you know, if if there was the ability to do an in kind, you know, you assuming not in kind.
Robert Swarthout:If if you could withdraw your Bitcoin or Ethereum and hold them, it'd be interesting if the world exists, and it's probably not today, but maybe in the future, where you could offer in Bitcoin or Ethereum to get BITW, and then then maybe your basis kind of you it's not a taxable event, guess, is what I'm getting at there. It'd be interesting. Yeah. I'm almost certain that doesn't exist right now, but that that'd be a cool scenario to help people that have been in, you know, the ETFs for a while that have seen some gains even with the prices being down right now, to be able to, you know, begin save on some taxes. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's that's definitely a a really great point. One of the one of the areas that's rapidly growing in conversations, and I think advisers have been having this conversation with certain segment of their clients for a while. But if you think about just what's happened in the market over the last, you know, really since o eight, after the GFC with the exception of, you know, '22 and what happened, you know, in COVID, the you know, there's there's been a lot of wealth generated in the market.
Andres Sandate:And yet the market's become more and more concentrated. And so you're you have a lot of clients that are sitting on more, you know, more and more highly appreciated assets and stocks, and yet the market's becoming more concentrated with the, you know, magnificent seven or the top 10, etcetera. Yep. And I think similar conversation, you know, with people that own highly appreciated Bitcoin or high other highly appreciated digital assets. Like Mhmm.
Andres Sandate:You know, they wanna diversify, but they don't wanna take that tax hit. So Right. Yeah. So so some really some really, you know, thorny issues to sort of sort out for for folks and taxes and the implications of taxes around certain decisions are meaningful drivers of behavior. Agreed.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. And I imagine that will stay continue to be thorny. That that's not something that gets worked out really easily. So Yeah. Anyways, our next topic is mister Jamie Dimon.
Robert Swarthout:He's changing his tune, Andres. He's he, you know, he for the longest time, him and Warren Buffett were in lockstep when they talked about crypto. Apparently Yeah. He got a different memo, and now he's all positive. So
Andres Sandate:Well, when you're the CEO and and, you know, chairman of the largest bank in the in the country, you have the I guess, you have the the the big microphone. If you decide you wanna change your tune, you could do that. And some people will go back in time and ask, hey. Didn't you say this? But he probably wouldn't be the first person to do that.
Andres Sandate:But it it is notable when somebody of his position, stature, highly respected individual and executive comes out and says, effectively, everything is gonna be tokenized. We've been studying the space. We've been doing this. It's it's yeah.
Robert Swarthout:It They went from well, his tune used to be, if I catch an employee that buys Bitcoin, I'm gonna fire them. That was I'm paraphrasing. That's exactly what he said. To, basically, now they're the experts in crypto. Like, it's amazing how things change.
Robert Swarthout:This is not surprising that they ended up here. It was gonna happen. But they you know, the the the tone change and how positive how how quickly that happened fall is is is interesting to watch. And we we mentioned this offline. You know, all these CEOs of these big banks that live that are at least willing to talk about crypto publicly or, you know, in little sound bites, for the last four years of the or, excuse me, of the four years of the Biden administration, they were all anti crypto.
Robert Swarthout:Right? Now that you have an administration that's pro crypto, they largely or maybe all of them, I haven't really studied it, seem to be positive. Is it just that they're following the administration or or what do they truly believe? Because now they've said two very different polar opinions. So I don't know.
Robert Swarthout:Well, maybe you'll find out over time.
Andres Sandate:But Well, you know, a lot of the wealth is, you know, in the stock. Right? So Yes. Like you have always said, you know, pay attention to what they do, not what they say. So Mhmm.
Andres Sandate:I think what they're, you know, what they are is they're largely tied to the performance of, you know, the the stock. And so Right. Where is the growth happening, in these larger financial institutions? You know, you look at BlackRock, you look at JPMorgan, you look at many many of the asset managers, the growth is in areas that we're talking about. It's in nontraditional assets.
Andres Sandate:It's in creating new products, you know, and new solutions for clients. Why why are there so many ETFs and ETPs being launched? Well, it's because it's what advisers wanna buy. You know? Why are they getting into crypto and digital assets when they didn't four years ago?
Andres Sandate:Well, it's because they have regulatory, you know, let's say, regulatory support, and that's where the market's going. So that's where they need to be, or they're gonna get left behind. They're going into alts. They're going into all these areas. So I yeah.
Andres Sandate:I mean, the I think the cascade of tokenization and crypto infrastructure is is a is a very big focus of '26. I personally am am of that view that we'll see a lot of utility related conversations and a lot of the conversation will shift from crypto is this thing, I don't really understand it, to major institutions, major companies, major leaders are gonna be talking about how it's key to, you know, the technology, which is everything today. Right? Is key to the the, you know, the strategic conversation, you know, at their company. That doesn't mean all the people embrace it, understand it, always say the nicest things, but I think they realize that it's it's it's table stakes at this point.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. I I would agree with that. So our next topic, there might be a new digital asset treasury. Well, actually, there is a new digital asset treasury coming. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. But it's backed by what many people say is the the real money on Wall Street and or around the world for that matter. And it's they they have big ambitions. I did read that about how they, you know, basically wanna be the the influencer when it comes to Bitcoin. So some of the names that are included in this digital assets treasury company is Cantor Fitzgerald, Tethr, so the largest issuer of the stablecoin, USTT, Softbank from Japan, Jack Mollers is CEO and founder of Strike, and TwentyOne is another one major player of Bitcoin.
Robert Swarthout:So, you know, how long it takes them to amass assets of meaningful size, it'll be seen. I was mentioning before we started recording. What what I found found interesting about this is, yes, they may end up being big. They I would imagine this one is this very quietly a company that goes and does it, buys it versus you contrast that with the way that MicroStrategy strategy is with Michael Saylor. Right?
Robert Swarthout:He's very much out there, the cheerleader standpoint. Will money gravitate towards one or the other, potentially? Obviously, MicroStrategy is a huge head start. I think they're approaching 5% of all Bitcoin ever in existence that they currently hold. So pretty cool to kinda see more of this happening.
Robert Swarthout:But, again, from our last episode, we talked about how the rules around this stuff or digital action companies might change when it comes to be included in an index or not. So some stuff in the air, but if these guys are getting into it, I'm guessing it's gonna be okay. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. You take comfort sometimes from the, you know, the participants. Doesn't mean they're right all the time. It doesn't mean that they will, get it wrong. Right?
Andres Sandate:Anybody that's seen, you know, the the the cycles are economic, and study economics knows that, you know, the the the the banks and the economists and and politicians get it wrong all the time. Right? You you oftentimes don't we don't see what's coming, and it gets you know, it catches us off guard. Right? There's lots of examples of that.
Andres Sandate:I think what's what what to me, what's notable is, okay, who all is involved? And number two, you know, these these digital asset treasury companies, we're seeing them, you know, formed. And to your point, like, it was about who was hyping it. It seemed like that was the approach and and who was behind it with the bullhorn versus almost anything else. And so to to see more traditional institutional type firms behind something, like this to me is is noteworthy.
Andres Sandate:If they come out on social media over the next few weeks or there's a spokesperson making the making the rounds on, on the talk shows, I'll probably have a different point of view the next time we record. But Yep. But, yeah, we'll we'll see. I I having another I guess, having more institutional and diversified ownership of Bitcoin to me cannot be a bad thing. Right?
Andres Sandate:Mhmm. It's it's a little bit unnerving or scary that you'd have one holder owning three, four, 5% of any single asset. Right. I've said this a couple of times to people, you know, depending on what happens with strategy and depending on what happens, with the capital markets, you know, that they are, you know, so tied in now with Bitcoin and Bitcoin with them. Any little foot fault rattles this whole space.
Andres Sandate:Mhmm. Yeah. And so you you don't wanna see, you know, a a major government bailout or some big Wall Street bailout. And so broad institutional ownership of the asset class, not just Bitcoin, to me, is a good thing. So if that brings if that comes about as a result of this, on twenty one Capital, you know, great.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. Agreed. Last topic for today. Paul Atkins, so the the chairman of the SEC, was recently on Fox Business, it appears here, and basically made the comment that all US markets will be on chain within the next two years. I would have thought even if he had said all markets would be on the blockchain within the next five years, I believe.
Robert Swarthout:But two years seem rather aggressive. But maybe he knows something that I don't, probably. And so, basically, tokenization and the ability to basically tokenize traditional assets and get them on a blockchain is not an if anymore. It's a win. And it's rapidly becoming a now, which is pretty awesome.
Robert Swarthout:So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. I I was, yeah. I was gonna say jokingly, if if this was a, an interview he did that was on in three in the morning and it wasn't it wasn't on live TV, I'd say, okay. But, yeah, the fact that he goes on a major network and then makes this announcement and obviously given his position, yeah, I'm I'm with you. It's a matter of, you know, when not if.
Andres Sandate:And I think just back to the earlier comments, were talking about Jamie Dimon and and and the comments, that he's made and the tune changing for him. And, you can go and look at any number of the CEOs of these major financial institutions and see if ten or fifteen years ago, it was introducing, you know, alternatives. Today, it's introducing, you know, digital asset infrastructure. It's introducing stablecoins. It's introducing all these new partnerships.
Andres Sandate:So, it doesn't stop here, but, yeah, I'm I'm with you. I I think it's a matter of, it's it's a matter of when, not if.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. That is true. Well, I in that spirit, so I think that's a wrap on this episode and on 2025 for us. So I wanna thank Andres for being along in this journey with me this year and everyone again for listening. So to stay updated, you can find us in any podcast player by searching Teton Crypto Capital or the weekly crypto check-in.
Robert Swarthout:And, feel free to leave us a review. We'd love it. Whether a new podcast player or you find us on LinkedIn, you can like the post, and, we'll be back in 2026 for more of these. Appreciate everyone, and take care.
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