Ep 35 - May 28, 2025 - US BTC holdings classified
Welcome to another episode of the weekly crypto check-in recorded on May 2025. I'm your host, Robert Sworthout, and I'm joined by my cohost, Andres Sandate. How's it going, Andres?
Andres Sandate:Hey, Robert. It's good. Happy post Memorial Day, and some hopefully, the start of summer has has been good for you.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's like summer, you know, I guess, in some sense, it's officially here with Memorial Day, but, like, we've had a spring in Atlanta. Like, it's actually been not terribly hot. It's been Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Borderline cool. I have a pullover on today, and it's the May, which you normally wouldn't think about doing.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. And we yeah. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt you. We we've had a lot of we've had a lot of spring, you know, end of year stuff with kids in school and then, you know, swimming season and baseball season are like colliding.
Andres Sandate:Know, parents always call May like May, May and December, like they merge it together. It's like May is becoming like the new December with all the end of the year stuff. Throw in Memorial Day, but yeah, it's it's it's been good and you're right like it's been like kind of wet and cool. Like I was just saying, I
Robert Swarthout:I I
Andres Sandate:kind of hope we get some sunshine here over the weekend, but
Robert Swarthout:it'd be nice.
Andres Sandate:Yeah, lots of, you know, lots of like recordings with sort of like ten to fourteen days in between. So yes, those marching on despite all of the stuff we're talking about here with our families.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. So let's jump in here. So US Bitcoin Holdings classified as the title here. So there's a Bitcoin conference going on, Bitcoin $20.25. And senator Loomis teased that she had an announcement to make.
Robert Swarthout:This is news as of yesterday afternoon. And she was up on stage, and apparently the news is, to me it's not really news, that the the government had done this internal audit to figure out how many Bitcoins it collectively holds amongst, I guess, all the different law enforcement agencies. And apparently, they have classified the information. And, I guess, as governments do. She said that she's been offered a briefing.
Robert Swarthout:I the the running number that you would see many people talk about online is 200,000, and that's, again, from different law enforcement actions where they seized it. You know? And and this kinda leads into her desire to have the the Bitcoin bill go through with the government would be buying a million different Bitcoins over the course of five years to, in her opinion, shore up the dollar. But we'll set that part aside. I don't know.
Robert Swarthout:It's it seems silly that they would be classified. Like, why does this is all publicly on chain if we knew the addresses.
Andres Sandate:Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:So it just seems odd.
Andres Sandate:Is there a national security consideration here? Just out of curiosity as to why the I don't know.
Robert Swarthout:This is fully a tinfoil hat comment here. The you know, you can make the argument that it's obviously probably not all in one address, So they've got to explore amongst multiple addresses. They can make a couple of those addresses disappear if it was the CIA or something and they need to use those funds for something else. Because the CIA likes to do stuff covertly, and they have been known to run businesses in the past, selling drugs and guns and all sorts of things. So maybe this would fall into that same bucket.
Robert Swarthout:I don't
Andres Sandate:know.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Yeah. I would
Andres Sandate:hope not. Well, you know, there has been some intrigue with Bitcoin and some of the kidnappings and arrests. And you know, there was one yesterday I saw that made the headlines where a second individual turned themselves into authorities and was involved in a, you know, this this ransom plot and kidnapping. So, you know, it doesn't take too much to kind of go, you know, down that path around this. I don't know if any of that is connected, but certainly as Bitcoin has had a nice little rally here of late, it just feels like all this stuff always, you know, kinda percolates to the top.
Andres Sandate:So Right.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. So it's, you know, on the topic of Bitcoin hitting, it did hit a high since we last recorded. It was, like, a hundred and 11 thousand and change. It's currently at a hundred and 7 thousand. So within a couple percent thereof of the peak.
Robert Swarthout:And it's and it's been in that range since. It's been in that 01/2006 to 01/11 range, kinda this channel that's kinda bounced around. So Yeah. With seemingly good news continuing to come out about digital assets and or Bitcoin in that case specifically. So Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Equity is doing well. So it's kind of odd that it hasn't done a little bit more, but maybe it'll get going. Normally, this May and the summer can be quiet for Bitcoin or for crypto in general. So Mhmm.
Robert Swarthout:I don't know if we'll see that this year or we'll see a change there. But we'll know here in a couple months when we leave there. Yeah. I guess let's move on here. So House GOP well, excuse me.
Robert Swarthout:Last week, the senate we talked about this. The senate did have a vote and they voted through the the stablecoin bill. So now it's on to the house and then on, you know, assuming they pass it, which I assume that they will because they're more the Republicans have more control there, then it would potentially end up in Trump's desk like he was requesting, which is great. We needed this. And I think that generally everyone's happy with what's in that bill.
Robert Swarthout:This one that we're talking about here would be market structure bill. This would be for the rest of crypto, and I think it it was ambitious to think that in this August, but we are quickly getting it. The house in the GOP do plan to bring it up this tomorrow to start discussing it. I it just seems aggressive to think that we see this before the end of the year. I I I would love to.
Robert Swarthout:I would love to be wrong, but I've been, let down so many times on these crypto bills. I've learned not to give my hopes up. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. I mean, the president Trump had originally said he wanted a bill on his desk by the August recess. Right?
Robert Swarthout:The the stablecoin bill, which did get to the senate. Right? So that one likely will end up on his desk before August. The thought that this one gets there as well, I mean, I would be happy if it did. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:But I don't think that's terribly likely.
Andres Sandate:We were sort of optimistic. I know a month ago, maybe two months ago that there would be, you know, maybe this combination package. And in one swoop, we would see sort of transformative legislation come through. But, yeah, it looks like politics has prevailed.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And admittedly, the the market structure bill's got more stuff in it. I mean, it it had people can pick at it in a lot of other angles that the stablecoin bill was rather straightforward. So we will hopefully get more about this soon, but it's maybe late twenty twenty five, my guess. So yeah.
Robert Swarthout:So our third topic here, back to Bitcoin. At Bitcoin twenty twenty five, Michael Saylor was up on stage on a panel. Someone in the audience asked him if strategy, which used to be micro strategy, the the company that he started and runs, would be willing to do proof of reserves for his Bitcoin and publish his addresses. You know, it seemed like an innocent request. I mean, especially following FTX, there was a big push for exchanges to do this.
Robert Swarthout:And his surprise his answer is surprising everybody. Yes. Even some other Bitcoin Maxis at this point. He said it was a bad idea, which immediately puts you on our on edge. It's like like, do I really need to prove this?
Robert Swarthout:And he says it it it basically, the the gist is is he thinks it lessens the security around it. Why would you do that? For all the reasons that I mean, that that's exactly the reason we want we would want to see it. I I'm not saying right now that I think that he is doing anything nefarious. You would think that being a public company, there's some audits that kinda prove out that they have some ownership.
Robert Swarthout:I guess they would do that quarterly or maybe it's yearly audits. I don't know what public companies go through. But he he basically said that a big four audit should be enough and everyone shouldn't worry about proof of reserves when, you know, probably somebody might find a comment back when FTX happened. He probably was running his mouth saying we needed to have proof of reserves. It's it's just a bad look in my opinion.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. I mean, yeah, on the surface, it just it sounds like a CEO standing up in front of a whole bunch of people at a conference saying, just trust me. It's all there.
Robert Swarthout:It's literally what he's saying. Yeah. And and and if you remember the last time or maybe two times ago when we recorded, there was one of the points that we made was like how much evangelism is too much evangelism. And he had posted this image on Twitter that looked like he was from, you know, the bible ages and he's like has this basket of fish and bread, like, kind of implying like he's like Bitcoin Jesus of sorts. And then he's doing this.
Robert Swarthout:I'm like, gosh, this good dude. His his ego has gotten a hold of him is one thing. I I will go on the record and say. But, it's just like, we don't we don't need this in crypto. Like, this I don't know.
Robert Swarthout:In some sense, fall in line a little bit here. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. It it it's as we talked about I mean, I remember you and I having these conversations on this show six, twelve months ago where we were sort of wishing and hoping that at some point, you know, with the election results not knowing what they were gonna be, right, we were hoping that we would see, a regulatory framework that was more pro legitimizing of crypto and digital We were looking for signs that, you know, institutions, governments and enterprises would start adopting, you know, and utilizing crypto and blockchain technology. We're looking for, you know, the good actors coming out of FTX who would stand up and sort of be, I don't know, you know, representatives of the even though crypto and and, you know, the entire industry sort of came out of this whole DeFi anti centralization ethos, you you were hoping that there would be these folks that would stand up and you know Larry Fink obviously has emerged as one of those, right? But you were hoping there would be some people within the industry kind of natives. This guy could have been that right?
Andres Sandate:And
Robert Swarthout:sort
Andres Sandate:of was for for some period of time, but now yeah, yeah, it's so far out on the spectrum. I think other folks and other voices are gonna emerge as more like mainstream and more, you know, the consciousness of the industry, I would argue.
Robert Swarthout:Right. And, you know, I'm not saying that what I'm about to mention here is connected, but it does you make you wonder. So there is a group that is trying to push forward a class a class action lawsuit against MicroStrategy for misleading statements about their Bitcoin strategy. And then so that's sitting out there, and then he does this at a conference. I'm like Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:I'm sure his legal counsel would not have told him to do this. Yeah. We don't need
Andres Sandate:to add this. Gas go today and and and this week, probably a lot of containment.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. So, again, I I don't know the details of that class action suit. I would say that strategy does seem odd. They probably can't sue them for being a bad, portfolio manager because but but in some sense, there's grounds for it. He's always buying the top and never buying it when it's down.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. So it just it seems odd. And people that are buying MicroStrategy because they want their Bitcoin exposure should just go buy Bitcoin. Don't get caught up in whatever this could potentially turn into. So Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Anyways, let's move on to a more positive topic. So our fourth topic here, the XRP ledger was chosen as blockchain blockchain of choice for real estate. And this is happening in the in the in Dubai. I was
Andres Sandate:gonna say The Middle East.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Middle East. Yeah. I really love like they in some sense, they they've been around for a long time in that part of the world, but like their whole infrastructure is kinda getting to get built in a much more modern, I guess, point in technology land. And so the Dubai land department, the DLD is what they refer to themselves as is going to do real estate tokenization, and they're using the XRP Ledger as the blockchain to do that.
Robert Swarthout:I'm not terribly surprised. It was chosen not because I think XRP is great, but just the amount of time that Ripple and their executives have spent over there
Andres Sandate:Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Just, like, pushing the ledger for all sorts of different reasons. And this is one of them. It kinda adds up for me at this point. So it was kinda Yeah.
Andres Sandate:I mean, it's a it's a validation, right, of their investment. We were talking about this before we went live that I said, well, this seems like there's multiple headlines about XRP. And, you know, your your comment was, well, there's probably a lot been going on speculation right? Yeah, you're you're not on the board or anything but like and they're private company but there's been this like plethora of announcements with them over the last like three months And your first comment was, well, you know, a lot of this could have been going on, right? But because of the litigation and the threat of litigation and the government having their sort of thumb on, you know, XRP for prior four years, there was a lot of, I think you're right, like there was a lot of hesitation maybe to come out vocally and show association or ties to the company.
Andres Sandate:And that seems to have changed. That tide shifted.
Robert Swarthout:Right. And I guess another way to illustrate just kinda like, you know, there's a thousand people that work at Ripple. They're doing something. Sure. They've been doing something for a while.
Robert Swarthout:And I mean, going on ten years, not all thousand of them, but it's a you know, for the longest time that they were saying quarterly, oh, we've signed so many deals this last quarter. They've stopped that for the last couple of years, largely during the lawsuit. That number, probably three years ago at this point, was a 80 different deals have been signed, like enterprise deals, And you probably couldn't even name two dozen of them. So there's a lot of stuff under NDA. And most of it doesn't need to be public.
Robert Swarthout:I mean, the people can use that ledger, use their technology, and never say it publicly, and it would work just fine. So we likely wouldn't know most of them long term.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. The only other comment I would make about about all of the news is, you know, the public company Palantir. Right? For years, they were private and people in, you know, in in technology and in Silicon Valley knew the company, knew the management team, and they were obviously busy at work doing significant amount of business with, you know, US governments and other, you know, foreign governments. Then it's like when they went public, all of a sudden, you know they were the darling of the S and P last year.
Andres Sandate:Know didn't start off the year this this year so hot like a lot of publicly traded companies. But it's an example, I guess a parallel that company has been doing a lot behind the scenes privately, couldn't talk publicly, couldn't disclose a lot of things because of NDAs and obviously their customer bases, governments and enterprises. XRP in some ways is similar, right? They're working with a lot of obviously very powerful institutions and enterprises and governments, and all this stuff is slowly dribbling out. The other thing I was gonna I was gonna say I saw a headline last week somewhat tied in to XRP because they have a stable coin or Ripple does at a lot of the big banks, JP Morgan and others.
Andres Sandate:There was a report that came out in The Wall Street Journal. You know more of a mainstream business trade publication that covers crypto, but it's generally only you know, when there's either a controversy or some news making headline. That the banks are starting to study. Do they need to kind of jointly come out with their own stablecoin? And you know that caught my attention because you know Ripple and some of these other companies we've talked about on this update have been in that business for some time.
Andres Sandate:Know, Circle and Tether. So it's it's pretty fascinating when you step back and see all the all the bigger players now recognizing the the business opportunity and recognizing the revenue and profit potential that they're, you know, leaving on the table.
Robert Swarthout:Agreed. You you know, that news that didn't make it into this list about that stable coin for that group of four. If they did, it'd be I would what I would find more interesting is where they plan to issue it on, which changed. Right? Like Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:You might have, who knows what they call it, but, like, you might have a JPMorgan Sablecoin. But if it's on networks people don't wanna use, or are they gonna put on multiple, which would make more sense? Because that that just brings more opportunity to those networks because there's liquidity sitting there. People can use it for things. So it's more of the oil in the system of sorts.
Andres Sandate:But it also comes back to the point you made. There's a thousand people at Ripple. Right? And and and so they're doing something. Right?
Andres Sandate:And these are the types of things they're doing. You know they're talking to these big enterprises and governments and institutions and there's engineers talking to engineers and there's projects going on. So you know we as the customer investor like far down the chain if you will probably only hear about this stuff, you know, months and sometimes years after, you know, the initial work and sort of projects got underway.
Robert Swarthout:A %. Okay. Well, our next topic is Kraken, a crypto exchange, which many people probably have heard of at this point, is is to soon start offering tokenized stocks and ETFs. There can be 50 different stocks and ETFs including Apple, Tesla, and Nvidia. Probably the top, Yeah, you know, 50 or top 40 biggest with some ETFs mixed in there.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah, the
Andres Sandate:biggest most liquid names. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:You know, it's my guess is that it's still twenty four seven trading and all the things that you get with crypto. This is this is a headline, but also this is not a headline. Like, this is gonna happen. This can be happening everywhere. I think if anything, Kraken Uphold does a little bit of this.
Robert Swarthout:They're just getting ahead of the curve. I think once these big brokerage houses decide to do this, who knows? Maybe Kraken on it kinda winds down this part of the business because, like, why would you go buy a tokenized stock on Kraken versus your broker?
Andres Sandate:Well, you're right. And I, you know, I as you're describing that, which is a great explanation, it sort of makes me think about Apple, right? Like they have they have dominated different, know, consumer electronic categories, not by being first, but by by by being the one that came in with the better product or right. The collection base that was there and ready and primed. So the early adopter that's gonna go do this on Kraken is probably more for novelty.
Andres Sandate:The bigger institutional, big retail trader, like they're gonna stick with Schwab and they're gonna stick with Interactive Brokers and they're gonna stick with, you know, the the major exchanges, where they're currently doing business just a matter of time.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. So I There's not tons to talk about here, but it's
Andres Sandate:A tokenization.
Robert Swarthout:It It's organization. It's happening and it's Yeah. You know, it's gonna you're gonna wake up one day and all of sudden it's gonna be everywhere. And this is gonna be part of what how how you got there. Our next topic is XRP futures launched on the CME.
Robert Swarthout:And I think what's interesting about this to me at least is the obviously, it's a regulated XRP futures. That has somewhat been a prerequisite for getting an ETF approved for spot ETF. So you have that whether the this SEC views that as a requirement. I I don't know. But what was very exciting, for Ripple was they're in the process of closing that acquisition to Hidden Road.
Robert Swarthout:This, the first trade of that futures was settled by at the CME by Hidden Road. So, like, eventually that will even be settled onto the XRP Ledger. That's part of the goal with that Hidden Road acquisition. But that part is not happening yet. This is cool to kinda see all this tied together and, you know, baby steps will turn into much bigger steps, I think, here in the not too distant future.
Robert Swarthout:So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. It's it's just really fascinating to see. I mean, we we talked about the token. We talked about the the, you know, the the stable coin. Some of these.
Andres Sandate:You know alt coins or alt tokens as we've called them or the industry calls them the utility aspect, right? And I was reading a blog yesterday from the folks at Arca and they were talking about different utility. There's social utility, which you can't under underweight when it comes to crypto, right? And and so when you think about like the meme coins and the Trump coins and things of like the social utility is real. There's the commercial utility.
Andres Sandate:And then, you know, you add those two together, they're making the argument, and then you have, like, the the tokenomics and financial aspect, and that's kind of how you, you know, or at least that's how they can sort of ascribe value, which is an interesting approach to valuation when you step back from it and say, how do you put a price on these tokens? And, you know, I think it's I think it's kind of fascinating to look at the ones that are actually getting traction with real customers, real counterparties, you know. The CME is is real. It's large. Yes.
Andres Sandate:And and a meaningful player when it comes to futures. So
Robert Swarthout:Yep. Just Gotta take notice. Yeah. And this really admittedly bleeds into our next topic. So the DTCC, most people probably have no idea what this is.
Robert Swarthout:But this is basically the agency of record for who who owns what stock and bond ETF, all the things in The US. Something like $10,000,000,000,000 under basically guidance. I don't know what would where would be for them, but Yeah. Under record, I guess. So they're not a they're not like a BNY.
Robert Swarthout:They're not a custody. They're just dealing with the record of it. Right. But they have recently some patents came out that they had published or that they had submitted that show XRP and XLM being used as part of their tokenization. Right?
Robert Swarthout:We've talked all about real world tokenization. Heck, even earlier in the show when we were talking about XRP ledger chosen for real estate in Dubai. This is another example of it. The d t t c's a representative for the DTCC was recently at a panel at a conference and said that they are gonna soon start tokenizing. They're not quite ready to do it yet, but it will be here soon.
Robert Swarthout:And, mean, I think it's fair to say maybe in the long term, I don't know, call it five years, five, ten years maybe, that everything that they have is tokenized on a blockchain and just it's could be pretty impactful.
Andres Sandate:Oh, huge. I mean, you can't underscore the the the ramifications of this organization. It's kind of a a quasi industry friendly organization. I
Robert Swarthout:think they're owned by a bunch of banks.
Andres Sandate:It's a consortium. You know, I kind of look at them as like the swift, Their infrastructure, call it, is how all the settlement and reporting and when you as a investor open up your brokerage statement and you see that you own a stock or a mutual fund or an ETF, right?
Robert Swarthout:Right.
Andres Sandate:All that reporting to your custodian and ultimately to, let's say, your bank or brokerage firm, all that reporting and the plumbing and information and data flows is all, you know, tied in with DTCC. And without it, it would be very difficult to do settlement and reporting so people could see what the values of their assets are. And so, if they can do stocks and bonds and mutual funds and ETFs, the technology is clearly there or will be shortly for them to do everything, Partnerships and everything else. Even more interesting for me is somebody that's been in the alt space for a long time is DTCC has a division called AIP or another aspect of DTCC is AIP, which is the alternative investment part of it. So any any firm that you talk to that wants to sell their fund through a network of wealth managers and financial advisors, they get and apply for a CUSIP.
Andres Sandate:And that CUSIP is an identifier which allows it to be reported on a statement. And so you can imagine if they're able to assign a CUSIP to a fund that they can now think the blockchain technology basically track any asset. We're still probably as an application process to go and and get a QSIP, but
Robert Swarthout:it's
Andres Sandate:a game changer when it comes to a lot of different aspects of settlement, reporting, transparency, you know, and ultimately where I think alts wanna go is is around liquidity.
Robert Swarthout:A %. Yeah. Yeah. That that guy that was on that panel was saying how it was a big push, I don't know, three years ago when they went from t plus three or two down to t plus one than it is now. And obviously, the next step would be t plus zero.
Robert Swarthout:And what what does zero really mean? I mean, functionally atomic instant settlement, I think within a minute is what he was thinking. Mhmm. So there's some blockchains. If he's if he's really saying minute is the cutoff, there's some blockchains that, I mean, obviously, wouldn't work on Bitcoin.
Robert Swarthout:It likely could work on Ethereum. But again, some of these networks don't have the throughput that the d t c c would bring to it. So you'd have to start thinking about other technology solutions to kind of deal with it. But it's it's cool to see that it being talked about publicly. You know, this has been speculated for a long time in, like
Andres Sandate:So the patent that they filed with the US Patent Organization, did they name other
Robert Swarthout:Those are the only two that I saw. I didn't read the whole patent admittedly, but it's but those are the two that jumped out. And that was some news circulating around those two as well. Yeah. So and again, for those that don't know the history here, XRP was a network that was in place.
Robert Swarthout:There was a bit of a breakup of founders of sorts. And one of them spun off and created XLM from the original source code of XRP, was open source, totally fine. So they're similar nature. They have since kinda gone down two separate paths, have different features of sorts, but they there's a good amount in common if you have those two. Fascinating.
Robert Swarthout:Sometimes they're viewed as big brother, little brother in different circles though.
Andres Sandate:Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:So our last topic here is quick one. So if we rewind to December or early January, so January of last year or even December of twenty three, I forget. It happened right around that that New Year's time. Somebody hacked the SEC's Twitter account and made an announcement that they were approving the Bitcoin ETFs. Oddly enough, that happened literally the day before the SEC actually approved the Bitcoin ETFs.
Robert Swarthout:The the gentleman that was caught, rather short order, after that, he was given, I wanna say, fourteen months in prison, for his little, escapade of, tweeting. So, you know, not really news here. Guess a bit of a closing of that story. And I guess don't do something stupid like this is maybe the moral here. Even as as fun as it may seem in the moment, you will get caught.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Yeah. I do remember that headline when it came out and it you know, with with crypto and and and x, there's usually a short wick between news and it making its way in into x and and and through social media. So, yeah, that that was that was news, you know, sometime back. The price too.
Robert Swarthout:It did. I wanna say it was like a a 10% move or something like that.
Andres Sandate:So yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, probably won't be the last person that's tied to this industry that ends up, you know, making a kind
Robert Swarthout:of a foolish
Andres Sandate:move. Correct. And and so, yeah. Well, look, I mean, my big takeaway from today's news is that, yeah, there is some stuff out there like the sailor headline around, you know, this comment around bad idea to basically tell you what we own or have somebody validate what we own. Right?
Andres Sandate:And you know, continue to be some sort of resistance in Capitol Hill around what we think would be legislation that would kind of move the overall industry forward. But there's other things going on clearly that are quite promising in terms of, you know, The Middle East with Dubai and their, you know, decision to to choose XRP L. So I'm a, you know, I know this summer, like you said, can be somewhat of a slower, more benign time for crypto. But I don't know. It feels like if if we get this bill and we'll just have to see, you know, what happens with some of these trade announcements, you know, the summer going into the fall could be a quite interesting time for this for the space.
Robert Swarthout:Agreed. Well, I think that's a wrap. So thanks for joining us on this episode of the weekly crypto check-in. To stay updated on future episodes, you can find us in any podcast player by searching t time crypto capital for the weekly or the weekly crypto check-in. Take care.
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