Ep 34 - May 16, 2025 - Coinbase buys Deribit
Welcome to another episode of the weekly crypto check-in recorded on May 2025. I'm your host, Robert Swartout, and joined by my cohost Andres Sedate. How's it going, Andres? Good. Good, Robert.
Robert Swarthout:It's good to see you. Yeah.
Andres Sandate:We're in the thick of May. It's getting nice
Robert Swarthout:out.
Andres Sandate:It's going like spring here in Atlanta.
Robert Swarthout:Yes. And, you know, it's we've had weeks I think the last three times we recorded was every two weeks. Yeah. And then this last week has been a lot of news.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. There has.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. It has been kinda crazy to see the pace of the pickup, but we'll just kinda jump in here. The first one is the acquisition streak in crypto continues, and the deal sizes keep getting bigger. So Coinbase is buying Derabit. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Most probably 99% of people have probably never heard of Derabit, but Derabit is a a crypto options platform, and it was ended up being a $2,900,000,000 deal for Coinbase to acquire them. $700,000,000 in cash and 11,000,000 shares of Coinbase stock. So, you know, this this I guess, having allowing Coinbase to offer more products effectively or more types of products. So it's, you know, this one caught me off guard. Wouldn't necessarily say I was watching for this one, but it makes total sense at the same time.
Andres Sandate:Well, Coinbase is in the news a lot right now. Yes.
Robert Swarthout:They've had a rough last few days.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Well, it's not yeah. It's not just it's it's not just this acquisition, which, you know, which is is obviously news to to to to follow as they bolt on additional capabilities to the platform, but they're set to join the the S and P five hundred, which is a major milestone for, you know, for them as a company, but also for crypto. Yes. Ironically, they're replacing Discover, which was acquired by Capital One.
Andres Sandate:So the expected date for them to join the index is May 19. And obviously, with the number of institutional investors and mutual funds and other index funds that have become, you know, just quite common for most investors and 401ks indirectly. All these investors are now going to have exposure, like I said, indirectly to crypto or at least the industry. So just another big milestone, I think. And then obviously, on a a bit of a downer, there was a cyber attack
Robert Swarthout:cyber attack
Andres Sandate:with Coinbase. There was a group of, you know, cyber criminals who it sounds like baited some offshore customer service folks to share, you know, customer info, Social Security numbers. There's, you know, expectations or I guess analyst reports that this could cost the company, you know, dollars 400,000,000. There was a $20,000,000 ransom demanded. They did not pay it.
Andres Sandate:Right. Are offering instead a $20,000,000 reward for the person's head. So, yeah, it's it's, you know, overall, it's it's not the first company that's had a cyber attack. Right? Right.
Andres Sandate:Lots of financial companies have had had have been attacked like this. It's just it's a news making one because it's in crypto.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And I think we should be very clear here. No customer funds were accessed Right. Purely just data. And on the topic of social security numbers, I believe it was just the last four digits of somebody's social security number.
Robert Swarthout:It wasn't the full one. So, you know, not great, but could have been worse, I suppose. And so the same day that that was, that Coinbase announced that hack, the SEC also said they might be suing Coinbase. So it was a rough day, and I'm sure at headquarters.
Andres Sandate:Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:And they were happy to kinda see that move on. But and it this sounds like the lawsuit may not even happen or may not go anywhere because it's over a metric that Coinbase used to, report on in their quarterly financials about user activity. They've stopped doing that two and half years ago. So if anything, it will be maybe a small fine or something if anything comes with it. So anyways, well, that's yeah.
Robert Swarthout:That that's a lot of news and just the first bullet point there for Coinbase. Right. Yeah. A lot of it was hidden. But, so our next topic is I shortened it a little bit, but it's Missouri to exempt capital gains on crypto, stock, and real estate.
Robert Swarthout:But, obviously, we probably look here a little bit more about the crypto in this show. You know, obviously, this is just state taxes. Some states don't even have this tax at all. So it's not like it's truly, like, an anomaly, but most states will have a tax on crypto, much like it's a normal capital gains treatment. And starting to see some states go the opposite direction.
Robert Swarthout:So it'd be interesting to see how much of this happens across multiple states or is this just kind of like a one and done for a while type situation?
Andres Sandate:Yeah. You know, I I keep wondering with these states that are passing these crypto bills and and trying to sort of show their friendliness or or acceptance of the crypto industry. What's the bigger play? You know, when when you think about states that have gotten, I guess, some notoriety, you know, Connecticut was and is still has the lion's share of like in corporations, right? Delaware.
Andres Sandate:Being in certain states are well known for places where you would open up a certain type of trust. And there's a lot of companies located there. I always wonder when these states are, you know, passing these bills and thinking about reserves, like, is there a bigger strategic objective at the state? I don't know. You know, I guess this is good for people that live in Missouri or are retired in Missouri or as you know, the capital gains exemptions.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah, you know. To your point of trying to attract maybe other things within crypto, I think Missouri would have a long road there. You know, it's not it's not a Miami. It's not it doesn't have the amazing weather that some of these other places that have become crypto friendly have.
Andres Sandate:But it's got the Chiefs, we're going to Kansas City. You know what I mean? As as as a person who spent a lot of time there because I grew up, you know, in in Central Kansas, it's a it's an underrated midsize US city. So there's a it's a great quality of life, you know. And but yeah, you're right.
Andres Sandate:Like the industry there is it's much more diversified. It's not concentrated in in financial services or crypto. So I agree. It'd be a hard, harder sell to compete against places even in the Midwest, like Chicago, so much less a Florida or New York. But but yeah, they're trying to make a play.
Robert Swarthout:Yep. Well, moving on here. So this is a very general topic, but the SEC changing priorities. This is more so speaking to the you have Hester Peirce, which is a commissioner. She's been very crypto forward thinking certainly the last four years, but she's, I would imagine, leading the charge right now internally with the commissioners around crypto and just kind of a, righting some wrongs, but also trying to put some guidance in place.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And it was cool to see that she you know, her idea that she's long had about, like, having a safe harbor so you can issue a token that is intended to be decentralized and therefore not a security, have a period of time for, a sandbox to be able to, like, have a finish line that you need to get past, whether it's two or three years later to prove decentralization and kind of effectively more from being a security into a commodity or whatever they wanna call that second stage. Then you even have and we'll get to it later, but Paul Atkins was talking kinda like at a higher level. And it's just it's cool to see, like, this feels constructive. Right?
Robert Swarthout:This obviously, they can say something and they gotta follow through on it. But we we actually have seen some action in the last three months, and I think we will continue to kinda see some more refinement around this. And it's cool to see the SEC basically saying, you know what? Some of this is not under our jurisdiction because the last four years, you know, even a bottle of ketchup was a security, and it was underneath their jurisdiction. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. You know, it's funny how I'll give you one anecdote. I was at a a major private credit conference, this week with close to 1,700 folks from all over the country. A lot of folks from, you know, the the, you know, sort of financial capital, like, you know, you'd imagine New York, but people from all over and the largest asset managers in the world were there. I was speaking to one of the folks from one of the largest firms that we speak about and talk about on the show on a regular basis.
Andres Sandate:And he leads their institutional fundraising business, right? So endowments, pensions, etc. And I talked to him for like ten minutes about crypto and he had no clue that the company was doing any of it. No clue. And it and this is at one of the largest, most prolific, you know, asset managers.
Andres Sandate:And so I always wonder, you know, are we like in an echo chamber? Or are these things actually making, you know, their way down to retail and into the mainstream? And I think, you know, if one thing the SEC can do is it it's got a pretty big megaphone. So when when it decides to make change or announce, you know, that we're open for business or crypto is going to be more, you know, I'm say less regulated in the sense, but there's going to be more structure. I think that they haven't.
Andres Sandate:Yeah, more defined. Like they think they have an opportunity to really get people's attention because even folks inside of some of these firms are not just not aware of of all this stuff happening day to day.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And, you know, not I have no idea what this gentleman's opinion is, but, it could be personal bias too. Right? Like, I I don't like crypto, so I'm not gonna pay attention to it. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Or, you know, purely not paying attention and it's happening, obviously. No fault. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows?
Robert Swarthout:But the yeah. It's a I I think what's happening is is, like, it's happening so quickly that it's, you know, all of sudden if they have a yearly training on new products, we're gonna get that wave in a year or so once some of these other firms catch up. So we will see. Our next topic was a bit of a downer and a bit unexpected. So Mhmm.
Robert Swarthout:This last goodness. Was it last Friday, a week ago, or maybe a week ago, Thursday, the senate did do a vote on the Genius Act. It's the stablecoin bill. It had gone through the house. It had gone through the senate.
Robert Swarthout:They had done reconciliation between the two bills. They were back voting on it in the senate, and it it did not get the votes it needed. So it's kind of in a in a precarious spot because it has one more chance if it's brought back for a FloorVoet in its current form without having to be restructured and brought back through as a different bill. Obviously, that takes more time. There's more risk.
Robert Swarthout:This was a political move, it seemed. There were some senate democrats that kind of that were in support of it to the sponsors of the bill voted against it, which was kinda surprising to think that you would sponsor something then vote against it. It sounds like maybe this coming Monday. So I guess that would be the the nineteenth. There there may be another vote.
Robert Swarthout:But, boy, man, it's a little bit too Last time
Andres Sandate:we talked about this update, it there was a couple of like, Sherrod Brown was one of the I guess, more vocal about some opposition and that, you know, some fairly sort of technical but important aspects of the bill that they were getting caught up on. One of them had to do with, you know, defining certain financial institutions
Robert Swarthout:Mhmm.
Andres Sandate:And how they would be regulated. Do you have any insight or perspective from the news headlines as to, like, what what's holding up?
Robert Swarthout:No. You know, I actually looked a little bit for that, and it just seemed like there was just a bunch of no votes, and there wasn't tons of discussion at that point. And, obviously, at that moment, there's not a floor discussion. It's purely just submitting your votes. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:It's actually, this it just reeks the politics to be for something to be a sponsor and then vote against it. And it was a close vote. I don't know. It's we'll see. I you know, I guess there's always drama in crypto in some form or fashion, and here here we are with it.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Seemingly was a bipartisan, I think, leading up to this. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Well, there's gonna be some jockeying happening over the weekend.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. So transitioning to our next topic, which these do tie together. On the same day that Democrats voted down the the Genius Act in the senate, Meta, so Facebook Yep. Announced that they will do are doing a stablecoin integration and called doing something called MetaPay to be able to pay within your a wallet that they'll put in your Facebook and Instagram accounts. I don't know if these are timed together, but they were within hours of each other.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And, you know, for those that have been in crypto for a while, I guess scrolling back all the way to 2019, '20 '20, Facebook had announced Diem which was gonna be the stable coin that was a basket of a euro, a dollar, and I wanna say the Japanese yen. And man, they that was the wrong time to announce that. At the time, they were still coming out of their whole, Cambridge Analytical scandal where they were manipulating or appear to manipulate the, an election. So it was just obviously a bad time.
Robert Swarthout:They've gone through that. That team is no longer at Facebook, but it's they they plan to use USDC and USCT. Yeah. So they're they're using someone else's products. They're kinda integrating, and I think this is certainly the more safe route for them to go.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And certainly a lot less political. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Yeah. It it I did know I did notice that that in the news that they were they were coming back with this stablecoin for payments through, you know, their different applications, you know, WhatsApp and Instagram, Facebook, you know, so for creators in one use case, right? This gives them and will give them if all proceeds like an opportunity to to use, like you said, one of the two major stable coins for transactions. So yeah, again, we're seeing this move in the sort of e commerce and the utilization of crypto, you know, in the blockchain technology behind it in the real world.
Andres Sandate:And so obviously, this is one of the largest platforms, not the largest social media platform in the world. Right? Got to be over a billion and a half users or something.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Three, four billion. And it's to think that they could turn it on and your wallets there. That's that's a huge introduction to crypto to, you know, established countries and third world countries too, depending if they're using Facebook.
Andres Sandate:Well, if you think about how quickly folks have adopted different forms of payments in the last decade, right? Like, I don't even know if ten years ago you could pay with your phone, right? Now you can tap and I mean, you don't Yes. Literally, mean, many people don't use credit cards anymore. Don't use a debit card, right?
Andres Sandate:I mean, they still pay with them, but it's it's digital. Correct. So just to think about how quickly the advancements have taken place, and I would think that the adoption and just look at how quickly AI is being adopted and utilized. Like, I just think that we might be underappreciating how quickly crypto and some of these payment Yep. Methods might be mainstream within a matter of years.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. You know, the the thing about the this Meta Wallet integration that I first thought about, and this is more putting my teeth on crypto capital hat on here is there's gonna be people that try to use this for cross border remittance to send money to family in other countries. Like, does Facebook have a tax reporting liability here? Like, how does that work? Like, there's more to this than just integrating a wallet.
Robert Swarthout:I'd imagine the teams are spending more time on all the other things than they are actually the wallet piece. Because again, the rails, the technology are already there. What they haven't announced as far as I'm aware of is which networks they're in which crypto networks they're integrating those stablecoins on because that will also be a boon for those networks. Yeah. So anyways, I'm sure there's more details to come.
Robert Swarthout:This was a very very general announcement that they did back on the twelfth. So moving on here. Man, we have we've talked on the show and offline about this Arizona thing. Yeah. Quite the drama scene down there, or assuming out west.
Robert Swarthout:So they've had two competing bills. One, the governor vetoed the other the one it sounded like she also vetoed in the news, but I have since gone and looked. She did sign it into law. They're the second state with a a Bitcoin reserve. They potentially could use rainy day funds is kinda how they would source the capital to buy Bitcoin in this case.
Robert Swarthout:But, man, it's a bit of flip flopping out there. So
Andres Sandate:Well, yeah, I I was getting ready to say the punch line is it it makes the the waste management open look like a like a joke. Right? I mean, I yeah, this was whipsaw because I thought the last time we talked about it, we had said on the headline in our check-in that they had, you know, the legislature had passed it.
Robert Swarthout:Passed it.
Andres Sandate:Yes. And then the governor got to the governor's desk and she vetoed it, which was a surprise. Yeah. And and then, like, literally that afternoon after our update or maybe, the next day, we see that there was a signature and and a law. So, yeah, simultaneous bills maybe were snaking their way to her desk.
Robert Swarthout:Right. Yeah. So I I believe the first state that got a bill across, the finish line was New Hampshire, and now Arizona's the second. That's the only two at this point. There's a lot that are in different states.
Robert Swarthout:Even our home state of Georgia has won early stages. I don't know if it it'll get brought to the floor for a vote, but it is slowly moving along in, you know, whether these are meaningful purchases or this is more of a symbolic some sense marketing. Like, we will see. And it could be just trying to make their citizens happy too, so who knows. On the topic of stablecoins, so the the Genius Act that got turned that got put down the senate was gonna set obviously rules and regulations around, like, how a stablecoin can be constructed and what it has to have, what it can't have as as collateral underneath it And I guess reporting requirements.
Robert Swarthout:USDT is for as long as it's functionally been around, it's had this cloud around it. Some people view it as a black cloud, some people view it as a white cloud. But a lot of suspicions sometimes around like, do they have the collateral? What kind of collateral they have? It's that whole story is morphed over time.
Robert Swarthout:There used to be like rumors that there was Chinese company bonds as part of their collateral. I haven't heard that in forever. If that was the case, I don't think that's the case anymore. But they do hold Bitcoin. So you have a volatile asset as part of the collateral.
Robert Swarthout:They've never done a public audit through a third party. I'll say that upfront, at least that I'm aware of. It's always the accounting department at Tether doing an audit, which by definition is not an audit. So anyways, there's swirl news swirling around like if we were to get the genius act passed in this in kinda in as part of law in The US that somehow it would sweep USDT under US jurisdiction if it's gonna touch US, I guess, consumers. What's interesting about this is when MICA passed in the EU, basically, wasn't compliant and people just don't touch USTT out there anymore.
Robert Swarthout:The same could happen here, which would be a boon for USTC and other, you know, US based. But I don't know. It's just it's splitting liquidity. And admittedly, I think as an American, these stable coins are generally good because it's providing a market for treasuries and other things to, you know, I guess try to support the dollar. You know, I understand that's a political statement, but it is but it is a big driver.
Robert Swarthout:I mean, are billions and billions, almost a hundred billion dollars in USDT. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. It you know, when you step back and try to, I guess, make it a headline that the sort of non crypto average person would understand, It's it's interesting that you have USDC, USDT, other stable coins, and they're all sort of arguing and we're all debating and the industry is trying to figure out like what is a stable coin and like what qualifies to go inside of a stable coin. And because this is like an industry where, you know, you have a, you know, you have a location like Hong Kong, which is very, very progressive, very forward thinking, wants to be the crypto capital of Asia that you know they may look at an entire issue or Europe. Talked about Mika like differently than say The US and it just when you you put that next to say like what's a US Treasury bond Like what's in a US Treasury bond? Like everybody sort of understands and agrees and there's a process and an auction that in this world, it's it's just different.
Andres Sandate:So we're just sorting it out. I think it'll get sorted out over the next year or two. But the Yeah. Much of our industry as you and I have talked about on these updates in these check ins, like there's so much regulation and and still politics and, you know, just a sorting, That's got to take place. And then once all that's done and in place, you just wonder like, will will there be, you know, this era of like mass innovation?
Andres Sandate:Or will there, you know, where will we see, you know, several more years of, you know, trying to put definition, right, and parameters around this.
Robert Swarthout:You know, I guess time will tell. But my sense is if we can get regulation, clear regulation that's not overly burdensome.
Andres Sandate:Sure.
Robert Swarthout:It will be nice defining guardrails that the industry can kind of run with. But Yeah. Yeah. Will tell what, congress comes up with because, you know
Andres Sandate:Well, this next this next, update in our check-in will you know, this and this individual will probably have a say in, in in where things go over the
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Two years for sure. Yeah. So Paul Ekins recently, I guess, confirmed in the SEC. We talked about that one or two episodes ago.
Robert Swarthout:He was giving his first public speech, and this one was at the the roundtable that happened for crypto. I think they're on their fourth, maybe fifth, roundtable. They're done with different topics. This one was, I believe, tokenization. But he said, the SEC needed to create clear guidelines for crypto issuance and explore new registration exemptions for safe harbors.
Robert Swarthout:Back to the thing we're talking about was history first idea there. Provide consumers with expanding custody options, including self custody, potential updates to the qualified custodian definition. That's a big one. And I think that one will finally hit the radar, but self custody is important to the crypto industry period. And also the whole qualified custodian thing, that can be a bit of a nightmare because that that becomes expensive to be part of.
Robert Swarthout:So giving people a right. You know, at the end of the day, the self custody is no different than you hold some gold bars and you keep them in your safe at home. I mean, that's self custody for crypto effectively. And the third thing, I guess, I'll point out about the speech was explore integrated trading platforms and monetization of ATS regulations to better accommodate crypto assets. I think if you reword that, that it says, basically, make it easier for crypto to be traded on traditional platforms, maybe like a Nasdaq or, you know, those kind of digital platforms that would show in a brokerage account.
Robert Swarthout:Positive news, which is great. And I and I didn't hold my breath when I heard he was gonna talk. We we are very different than we were six months ago. So.
Andres Sandate:Yeah, I think people are eager to hear. Yes. You know, I can speak. And I I don't think it's just in the crypto space. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of hope.
Andres Sandate:I mean, like I said that or or maybe even more than hope, there's there's a lot of excitement even from folks outside of just crypto, but other alternative investment spaces and asset classes where I'm active that there's gonna be this is gonna be a a much more progressive SEC sort of regime, and there's gonna be, you know, perhaps a broadening of the accredited investor definition, and it's we're starting to see alternatives now moving four zero one ks accounts that was never talked about. And you'd have a hard time thinking that, you know, inside of a four zero one ks that you could buy, you know, or have access to alternative investments, right? Which pension funds and endowments and big institutions have had for decades. And so, you know, there's there's just this overall, I think, movement underway at the SEC. And I think cryptos, you know, potentially the industry really stands to benefit.
Andres Sandate:So these speeches will be hotly anticipated, you know, over the next, you know, over the next year or two as he gets established and they look for more, you know, ways to provide this clarity that they've all claimed to want to do.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. And there's certainly been some people that are frustrated that more hasn't happened yet. Like, isn't regulation ready? You're like but, like, all these roundtables normally would not be compressed into a time period of two months. They would have happened over the last four years.
Robert Swarthout:So I guess kudos to the SEC staff that are trying to accelerate this and play a bit of catch up.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. It's gonna use the same words. Like, they're they're a little they're probably feeling a little bit behind where maybe even other jurisdictions are or other countries are in terms of, you know, being able to keep jobs and development and innovation here in The US. Because I think
Robert Swarthout:a bit of the risk is is the SEC continues to be slow or do nothing. And then you also start having states try to come up with their own rules. And then we have 50 different sets of rules. We need one set of rules. So we will, hopefully get that sometime in the next year or so.
Robert Swarthout:So moving on to our last topic, and there's not tons to talk about here. This has caught me kind of off guard. Thailand is set to sell $150,000,000 worth of crypto to their public. This first, when I read it, I was like, oh, are they launching a meme coin or what's going on here? I could find very little details about it.
Robert Swarthout:But it's interesting to see a country do something. I mean, you've seen countries buy other things. You haven't seen countries sell. Is first country I think I've seen ever sell something.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Haven't seen it. I haven't seen a headline like this before.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. So, yeah, again, hopefully, this is not a some kind of pump and dump of of any sort that would hurt their citizens, but kind of interesting nonetheless.
Andres Sandate:So Well, yeah, you know, you look at what's going on with we talked about this one a month or two ago, like, with Argentina and their you know, the the disaster there with their was it prime minister or president Yep. With with with Meme Coins. So, well, I'd love to get your take. There's there's you know, there's this, you know, I guess the sentiment, it seems like with crypto right now, like if you look at prices over the last week, you know, and certainly the month of April, we saw prices kind of for sure for Bitcoin. Mean, it's up over 104,000.
Andres Sandate:It was at 85, 80 6, you know, not long ago. Some of the other alt to altcoins, you know, have also, you know, including Ethereum have had, you know, nice nice little runs here. What's your overall sense? Is this a reaction to, you know, the broader economic news around trade and some of these trade deals that are are kind of being announced or pausing these trade wars, if you will? Or is there something else going on, like, more in the crypto cycle?
Robert Swarthout:You know, I think generally, we're still in the crypto bull market cycle, maybe taking a bit of a a breather of sorts. Yes. The prices were up over the last, call it, six weeks at this point. I think it's largely just been driven by we were so beat down in q one. So crypto was up in April when most of the market wasn't.
Robert Swarthout:Right. Or most of the, I guess, equities market wasn't. But I think it's just purely, like, a bit of, like, a little less of the boot on the neck the last couple weeks. Okay. Just generally economically with all the tariff stuff.
Robert Swarthout:Okay.
Andres Sandate:So you feel like it it's it's maybe just a little bit of a breather? I mean,
Robert Swarthout:people are not gonna invest in the riskiest escalator class they can find if they feel like they're getting pinched other places. Right?
Andres Sandate:Like
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Yeah. So in I guess more broadly, there's never been a bull market where there was a down market in equities. So while that, you know, that recession of April of '20 '20 '5 that everyone was talking about, obviously, it wasn't a recession per se, but it it definitely gave a moment of pause in crypto. So I think that crypto, this is certainly not a price prediction, but I think that we continue our bull market cycle, and we we're very happy towards the end of twenty twenty five.
Robert Swarthout:So Yeah. Fascinating. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the weekly crypto check-in. To stay updated on future episodes, you can find find us in any podcast player by searching T Time Crypto Capital or the weekly crypto check-in.
Robert Swarthout:Take care.
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